But, see my comment to Jesse below, it doesn't actually help all that much. If our account counted enough to counter the sexism we're reacting to, there wouldn't BE so much sexism.
Rage can be very helpful in keeping one's soul alive, but it doesn't, by itself, change anything unless it can find "a lever and a place to stand."
Sure, lots of women and girls are really tough and self-assured.
But also, lots are susceptible to having their self-worth eroded by an aggressively belittling culture. I like the augmented version because it does more than just demonstrate how progressive the author considers himself, it illustrates risks other than just being an asshole or not.
Sure, plenty of women and girls wouldn't stand for that kind of talk. But if NONE of them would, if every woman and girl was immune to that kind of contempt, then it wouldn't be a very big problem that it's rampant. Except for the dudes, I guess, because everyone would know they were sexist fucks and wouldn't tolerate it.
Yeah, but the dots don't connect. Sexism doesn't have anything to do with who hates us. Lots of men like women who suck at math perfectly well. Lots of men prefer them. Lots of men with advanced math degrees, even.
So, yes, totally. Girls have their self-esteem eroded by that shit, no problem. Ask Me About My Panic-Attack Inducing Math Phobia And How It Grew.
But as a woman who was that girl, the amended version was the one that came off patronising and belittling to me. Because obviously the problem is that girls take remarks like that so PERSONALLY. He wasn't being MEAN...
Because, no. I didn't have bursts of perfectly phrased feminist rage when I was 14 and this happened to me. But I didn't think "he hates me", either. I thought "why do the people who purportedly LOVE me think he's right? Why are they telling me it DOESN'T MATTER? Why is it not only apparently inevitable but apparently not worth fixing that I am having trouble with math?"
And for me, the original caught that better. People don't necessarily say that shit in a mean, hateful tone of voice. They say it like "That's okay, honey, you're a girl."
I think we mainly disagree about whether it was intended to still be the dude's fault in the fan version. Do you think it was letting him off the hook by showing her not getting angry? I don't think she's wrong for taking it personally.
I don't think it presents a universal picture, but I don't think the original did either and that's the stage at which the pompous "How It Works" title was applied. I just think it bears illustrating that there are better reasons to not treat other people badly than how it may reflect on one's character.
Do you think it was letting him off the hook by showing her not getting angry?
I don't think it's letting him off the hook. But I think it's a misapplication of focus. It's making it about her and her reaction versus the guy in the first square's reaction, instead of about the fact that a female person trying to learn in an environment like that is walking up a glass hill wearing fleece socks.
No, she's not wrong for taking it personally. But here's the thing: it won't actually help if she doesn't. Her reaction and mine are precisely equivalent in observable effect on the world.
I guess basically I don't agree with your eroded self-worth argument. I mean, YES, this kind of shit wears away at a person's self-worth, but not because we "take it personally". It wears away at our self-worth because it tells us we won't be needing it.
There is not enough self-respect and awareness of one's own abilities in the world to enable you to function as a human when everybody around you is honestly, genuinely convinced that you are actually a domestic animal. Trying to assert your sense of your own humanity merely makes you a badly behaved domestic animal.
(Yes, obviously self-worth is important. But it is so to oneself, not to one's situation.)
ETA: IOW, I don't see the title of the first one as pompous. Because as far as I can see, that IS how it works. *is compulsive serial editor* That's the whole trick, right there. It's HIS account that usually counts.
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2008-02-22 02:36 am (UTC)I think I love you now.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-22 02:41 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-02-22 03:10 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-02-22 09:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-02-22 09:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-02-22 03:15 am (UTC)Act V, scene II, Much Ado About Nothing, right?
no subject
Date: 2008-02-22 03:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-02-22 04:40 am (UTC)HERE IS A LINK TO WHAT I AM REFERRING TO.
Yeah I dangled that participle. What.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-26 03:51 am (UTC)Actually, the phrase "girls suck at math" causes most women I know to emit viridian-coloured thought-clouds that say DIE SLOWLY SEXIST FUCK.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-26 05:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-02-26 06:46 am (UTC)But, see my comment to Jesse below, it doesn't actually help all that much. If our account counted enough to counter the sexism we're reacting to, there wouldn't BE so much sexism.
Rage can be very helpful in keeping one's soul alive, but it doesn't, by itself, change anything unless it can find "a lever and a place to stand."
no subject
Date: 2008-02-26 05:47 am (UTC)But also, lots are susceptible to having their self-worth eroded by an aggressively belittling culture. I like the augmented version because it does more than just demonstrate how progressive the author considers himself, it illustrates risks other than just being an asshole or not.
Sure, plenty of women and girls wouldn't stand for that kind of talk. But if NONE of them would, if every woman and girl was immune to that kind of contempt, then it wouldn't be a very big problem that it's rampant. Except for the dudes, I guess, because everyone would know they were sexist fucks and wouldn't tolerate it.
People do tolerate it.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-26 05:58 am (UTC)So, yes, totally. Girls have their self-esteem eroded by that shit, no problem. Ask Me About My Panic-Attack Inducing Math Phobia And How It Grew.
But as a woman who was that girl, the amended version was the one that came off patronising and belittling to me. Because obviously the problem is that girls take remarks like that so PERSONALLY. He wasn't being MEAN...
Because, no. I didn't have bursts of perfectly phrased feminist rage when I was 14 and this happened to me. But I didn't think "he hates me", either. I thought "why do the people who purportedly LOVE me think he's right? Why are they telling me it DOESN'T MATTER? Why is it not only apparently inevitable but apparently not worth fixing that I am having trouble with math?"
And for me, the original caught that better. People don't necessarily say that shit in a mean, hateful tone of voice. They say it like "That's okay, honey, you're a girl."
no subject
Date: 2008-02-26 06:11 am (UTC)I don't think it presents a universal picture, but I don't think the original did either and that's the stage at which the pompous "How It Works" title was applied. I just think it bears illustrating that there are better reasons to not treat other people badly than how it may reflect on one's character.
no subject
Date: 2008-02-26 06:42 am (UTC)I don't think it's letting him off the hook. But I think it's a misapplication of focus. It's making it about her and her reaction versus the guy in the first square's reaction, instead of about the fact that a female person trying to learn in an environment like that is walking up a glass hill wearing fleece socks.
No, she's not wrong for taking it personally. But here's the thing: it won't actually help if she doesn't. Her reaction and mine are precisely equivalent in observable effect on the world.
I guess basically I don't agree with your eroded self-worth argument. I mean, YES, this kind of shit wears away at a person's self-worth, but not because we "take it personally". It wears away at our self-worth because it tells us we won't be needing it.
There is not enough self-respect and awareness of one's own abilities in the world to enable you to function as a human when everybody around you is honestly, genuinely convinced that you are actually a domestic animal. Trying to assert your sense of your own humanity merely makes you a badly behaved domestic animal.
(Yes, obviously self-worth is important. But it is so to oneself, not to one's situation.)
ETA: IOW, I don't see the title of the first one as pompous. Because as far as I can see, that IS how it works. *is compulsive serial editor* That's the whole trick, right there. It's HIS account that usually counts.